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  #26  
Old February 17th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Elements
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Originally Posted by Serein
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Originally Posted by dream wanderer
To move away from the nudity bit for just a minute..this is from another person who was at the screening:


"I hated Paris in the first half of the movie and I really do like Orlando Bloom, so I'd say he must have done a good job if he could get me to dislike him. His duel with Menelaus is his acting highlight in Troy. "


It sound ok to me!

dream wanderer
Yes, THAT's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm looking forward to. I think if people can just look past the smoldering good looks and the thighs, they will realize Orlando's got talent to spare.
Ditto on that Serein. I want to think he is a creep. I want to dislike him in this film. It's going to be hard but if he can do that then he is one hell of an actor.
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  #27  
Old February 17th, 2004, 03:19 PM
dream wanderer
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Originally Posted by Malene

And maybe it's the european in me.
Nakedness in films or art isn't such a big deal.
If it's a natural part of a film it's well,natural.
But when it becomes a "Hey look! We're naked!" thing,it's just silly IMO.
Yes it is the European in you ...but that's ok. Europeans are desensitized to nudity the way Americans are desensitized to violence. I watch BlackHawk Down over and over while some of my good European friends could only watch it once, and then with great difficulty. I could say they were just being silly, that the violence isn't real but I don't do that because I know it really upsets them.

Americans really aren't that puritannical. There is nudity all over the place here if you like, but there should also be an arena where you can go if you have no desire to see nudity. We honor choice in all things.

So I'm not offended at all cause I know where you are coming from...but Europeans should try and understand where we are coming from as well. Hope *I* didn't offend!! :)

dream wanderer
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  #28  
Old February 17th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Seuvilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream wanderer
To move away from the nudity bit for just a minute..this is from another person who was at the screening:


"I hated Paris in the first half of the movie and I really do like Orlando Bloom, so I'd say he must have done a good job if he could get me to dislike him. His duel with Menelaus is his acting highlight in Troy. "


It sound ok to me!

dream wanderer
Oh, fantastic!! That's great! I hope I hate him, too. It'd be kinda weird, I think, cos I usually love him so much, but if he does manage to get us to dislike Paris as much as we should... well, that'd be what I call acting. Squee! I'm all excited now!

And I've just got hold of another copy of The Iliad that doesn't look so heavy, so hopefully I may actually read this one rather than just aiming for the end like last time.
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  #29  
Old February 17th, 2004, 06:26 PM
Elements
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Actually dream wanderer, you have hit upon a very valid point. Europeans are much more relaxed about nudity, with the mainland Europeans being a lot more relaxed than the Brits. In France nakedness is not an issue, and subsequently it is not shown in a gratuitous way in their films. Something can only be gratuitous if it is out to shock IMO. They don't have a problem with it, and so happily show it in their fims without making a big deal of it. That being said they still don't show full frontal male nudity in the classy films. Female yes, top half female definately, but not male.

This whole thing with Janet Jackson has hit home to me the American attitude to nudity. Where every person (Brit) that I know just shrugged and thought it was silly, there seems to be this huge deal made about it in the States. So she flopped one out, big deal, it was covered up anyway.

But then the point you make about violence being much more acceptable there is intirely true as well. We don't have gun crime here as a rule, infact I have never seen a hand gun in my life, only ever actually seen air rifles, and they are not common. Shotguns you get in the country, but then they are not available to all. What we find shocking here is not what is found shocking in America and vice versa.

That being said, it seems that there will be plenty of nudity and violence in Troy, so something for everyone
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  #30  
Old February 17th, 2004, 07:35 PM
Angel_of_the_West
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Originally Posted by Serein
Yes, THAT's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm looking forward to. I think if people can just look past the smoldering good looks and the thighs, they will realize Orlando's got talent to spare.
Serein, honey, you said it perfectly! And it draws me to what I am looking forward to, and that is seeing Orlando play a role where he isn't really the hero. In a small interview in Empire magazine, Orlando called it right about what Paris is, he is the anti-hero. And I just know, after having seen Orlando in Midsommer Murders, that he can pull off play less than the hero. The boy has buckets of talent and it's time he got a chance to show it off. He got us to love his characters win LOTR and other movies, now I want him to make me feel something else about this character.

And it will hopefully silence those naysayers out there who have pegged Orlando as too pretty to ever play anything other than they type of hero role he has played in the past.
Yes, I'll still love Paris, I mean what's not to love? :paris:

I also agree with what Malene, Hi Malene :) said, that it is probably unlikely that those nude scenes will be in the final cut of the movie, since this is a Hollywood blockbuster and will be targeted not just at adults but kids as well.

Whatever happens and no matter the debate. I still look forward to this movie with as much excitement as I did LOTR's. I love the Iliad and I can't wait to see the story of Troy come to life before my very eyes.

Angel
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  #31  
Old February 17th, 2004, 08:20 PM
dream wanderer
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[quote="Elements"]Actually dream wanderer, , there seems to be this huge deal made about it in the States. So she flopped one out, big deal, it was covered up anyway.
[quote]

The big deal was made by the media. The average everyday American was ready to move on the next day but the media is so sensationalist oriented here its NOT funny. They were the ones who kept it going and going and going...I hope you all didn't think it was normal American people making the big deal because trust me they weren't. It got old and boring very quickly..

But you are right...enough violence and nudity to in Troy to either thrill or offend everyone...

dream wanderer
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  #32  
Old February 18th, 2004, 02:02 AM
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You know, I just have to say that I'm grateful to dw for posting so eloquently over on IMDb in the "Troy" thread. I lurk there and cannot believe how so many posters believe Orlando's "screaming fangirls" somehow influenced the way the way Paris was portrayed! Honestly...it's quite irritating.

So dw for your posts and staying so calm (relatively) in when responding in the "Paris Must DIE!!" thread.
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  #33  
Old February 18th, 2004, 02:11 AM
dream wanderer
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Thanks. Me and another poster "The Ocelot' are doing our best. I can't believe how they think that somehow WE are resposible for the script being written the way it was. Hello....the script was written before Orlando was even cast..most of us were surprised as anyone else that the story had changed...I have no idea how many times we have gone over the same subject.

dream wanderer
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  #34  
Old February 18th, 2004, 12:33 PM
Malene
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Originally Posted by dream wanderer
Yes it is the European in you ...but that's ok. Europeans are desensitized to nudity the way Americans are desensitized to violence.
It's a cultural difference.
Personally I think there is violence and then there is violence.
The violence in LoTR,matrix and lots of other fantasy movies and fiction doesn't bother me at all. I quite enjoy it as a matter of fact.
Who am I kidding,I think it's cool! I grew up with brothers.

But the violence in movies based on real events is harder to take.
I've been watching Band of Brothers (hope you've seen it) with my husband over the last weeks.
And I cringed every time someone got their limbs blown to pieces and had their guts hanging out. I was also terrified every time Easy Company was in combat because I was so afraid some of them would get killed or wounded. Which of course many of them did.
It was a real war . It happened.
Black Hawk Down is also based on a real event. So I struggle with the violence and death in that movie also.
Besides,what really happened was probably bloodier. Especially in WW2.

So I think my reactions are in fact healthy. :)
As opposed to freaking out about seeing someones genitalia.

The people who think Orlandos fans are the reason for script decisions in Troy are morons. Enough said.
That's not flaming,is it? We can call a spade a spade in here,can't we?
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  #35  
Old February 18th, 2004, 01:21 PM
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Ya calls 'em as ya sees 'em, Malene. =D>

I've seen "Band of Brothers" too and it's excellent. I also was cringing everytime they got into a firefight or heck (the worst) talking innocently when a sniper or enemy would pick off someone. A film that I have never seen, although my husband liked it, was "Saving Private Ryan". After hearing just how REALISTIC the opening beach landing was...I knew I wouldn't be able to handle it precisely because it DID happen that way according to surviving veterans.

Like dw wrote, Americans for the most part are desensitized to violence. Heck, some of the cartoons here are very violent (have you seen some of the stuff on Cartoon Network?!).

That said, war IS war and I would expect a certain level of bloodshed in "Troy" as long as its not gratuitous (i.e. lingering shots of people getting their heads run through or guts flying).
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  #36  
Old February 18th, 2004, 03:05 PM
LegolasIsMyOneRing
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Dran it i want to read the reveiw my IE and I are having issues so i can't acess the site! LOL! but i will try agian later but i will say that i can't wait for this movie to come out!
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  #37  
Old February 18th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Elements
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Originally Posted by dream wanderer
Hello....the script was written before Orlando was even cast..

dream wanderer
Quite literally a couple of thousand years before he was cast surely In essence at least.
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  #38  
Old February 18th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Malene
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Originally Posted by Elf Lady
Heck, some of the cartoons here are very violent (have you seen some of the stuff on Cartoon Network?!).
*Blushes*. My children watch Cartoon Network a lot..while I do this, as a matter of fact.
The funny thing is,my son who is 5 is very sensitive to violence on TV and in motion pictures. He gets frightened by it.
But in cartoons he thinks it's funny and laughs at it. I asked him about it,and he says that cartoons aren't real. They are made up.
But films with real actors in them,he believes are real.
I've tried showing him LoTR and PoTC for instance,but those movies scare him. They become too real.
My daughter on the other hand, who is only 2, can sit and watch LoTR and PoTC with me.
She's so funny when she sees the pirates. She says "Aaarrgh!" and whispers "Scary!" excitedly! She doesn't understand english,so it's fun to see that she still "get's" it.

I've also seen "Saving Private Ryan". And yes,the landing was hard to deal with.
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  #39  
Old February 26th, 2004, 08:10 AM
Ancalime
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You know, I want to see Troy. I really do. I want to see Orlando in it so badly. But regarding the love scenes between Paris and Helen: I know this is gonna sound weird, but I don't think I want to see them! I don't know if I can explain this in a way that makes sense, but I had a hard enough time watching him kiss Keira in PotC! That took a lot out of me, although I finally felt that it was wonderful!

Call me ridiculously idealistic, or whatever - but I don't feel that I want to watch my Orlando standing in front of a semi-naked woman, let alone taking her to bed! The thought of the expression on his face! I don't think I could take it. As weird as it sounds, I believe I could stomach the supposed violence in the movie better than i could that. I doubt if anyone else feels like I do - but it's just that it's Orlando, you know?? He's my elf, in my mind, and always will be, and for some reason, I don't want to remember him in the way I think Troy will portray him! I know I'm terribly idealistic, but I can't help it.

Now I'm sure you all think I've lost it.


Ancalime
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  #40  
Old February 26th, 2004, 09:27 AM
Rozzan
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Originally Posted by ancalime
You know, I want to see Troy. I really do. I want to see Orlando in it so badly. But regarding the love scenes between Paris and Helen: I know this is gonna sound weird, but I don't think I want to see them! I don't know if I can explain this in a way that makes sense, but I had a hard enough time watching him kiss Keira in PotC! That took a lot out of me, although I finally felt that it was wonderful!

Ancalime
No, dont think youve lost it at all Ancalime. I too can barely wait for Troy but as well as anticipation there is trepidation at how it will affect me. That Elf had a magic that is really special and I am wary of anything that may spoil my perception of him. I am going to have a hard time slotting and filing things in my head I guess. I cannot risk anything spoiling my Elf obsession. I will have lost a lover.
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  #41  
Old February 26th, 2004, 11:37 PM
SinLooWho
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Originally Posted by Elements
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Originally Posted by Elf Lady
A film of merit showing full frontal male nudity? I've never seen it, so I don't know if the film is any good...but I have seen shots of Viggo completely nekkid from Indian Runner.
Not seen the film... have seen the screen caps I wouldn't like to see Orlando in that manner (unless it was just me and him in a room).
I'm going to have to agree with you here Ele. I can't say that I have ever really thought that that was an asthetically pleasing part of the anatomy. I mean come on, it's just not all that attractive to look at.

As for him not being the star of the film, or not being seen much, I have heard these comments before. I don't understand. I have never actually read the Illiad , but I thought that Paris was like the major cause of this whole thing. Do I have my wires crossed somewhere? How can he not be in it much?
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  #42  
Old February 27th, 2004, 12:03 AM
Elements
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Minor Spoilers in of the Illiad variety
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Paris is not in the book much, his part is really very minimal actually. Yes it is him that starts the whole ball rolling by taking Helen from Meneleus (and don't get my started on sponge cakes, damn Eddie Izzard!), but after that he has very little to do. He has one fight with Meneleus which he chickens out of. In the Illiad it doesn't even get to him killing Achilles, but as I understand he does in the film, so I guess they have padded his part, or rather extended it beyond what it is in the book. So while he is the cause of the whole thing, he plays a very small part in the book.

And on a lighter note, I have to tell you what my mother says about the attractiveness of the male genitalia - last turkey in the shop.
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  #43  
Old February 27th, 2004, 12:22 AM
TweedPants
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Oh God thanks Ele, i have thought of NOTHING but Eddie Izzard since i heard of Troy lol, why didnt Achilles just stick his foot in a block of cement - oh God now i'm gonna have to go and find my Eddie Izzard videos
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  #44  
Old February 27th, 2004, 12:43 AM
Elements
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Originally Posted by TweedPants
Oh God thanks Ele, i have thought of NOTHING but Eddie Izzard since i heard of Troy lol, why didnt Achilles just stick his foot in a block of cement - oh God now i'm gonna have to go and find my Eddie Izzard videos
I swear you will be able to tell the Eddie Izzard fans in the audience, we'll be the ones sniggering at inappropriate moments thinking about Achilles with his foot in a block of concrete with trolley wheels on the bottoms
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  #45  
Old February 27th, 2004, 01:02 AM
TweedPants
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So true, especially with my friends, we all went to see Eddie's last show Sexie together, we are all big fans, so when you see all the ships in my head will be 'oh go look and see if there are any ships - yup theres ships - how many? - ummmmmmm all of them'

However i do doubt that Paris' first line will be 'Queen Helen you are kind of sexy, let me kiss you with tongues' - taken from Eddie's show Glorious
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  #46  
Old February 27th, 2004, 05:10 PM
SinLooWho
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OK...don't know Eddie Izzard. It he something like Monty Python? (I didn't just cuss or anything did I?) It sounds like it might be funny to watch.

And Ele...tell your mom I agree with her assessment!
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  #47  
Old February 27th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Elements
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Oh you absolutely have to see Eddie Izzard if you can Sin. He's a stand up from my town (v. proud! Sexie was filmed in a theatre I have performed in ) and he has got to be one of the funniest people ever. He's done a bit of film acting as well, but it is his stand up stuff that he is known for, that and being a transvestite - he calls himself a male lesbian.

The Troy stuff is all on his Glorious tour, which in my opinion is one of his all time best. He does a whole bit about the Bible then moves on to Troy. It is hillarious! He's very physical and acts out everything he does with grand mime gestures. I swear it will have you in hysterics! Not one to watch with the kiddies though, naughty language of the Orlando variety I would strongly suggest you wait until after you have seen Troy though, don't want to ruin the film by thinking of him doing the 'kissing with tongues' part. Let's just say I am pretty sure that is not how Orlando will be doing that part
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  #48  
Old February 27th, 2004, 07:27 PM
TweedPants
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Yeah Eddie is amazing, if you can you should totally see some of his stuff, he was in the movie Mystery Men with Ben Stiller(and another great comedian had a cameo - Dane Cook). Eddie's humour is very random, he says the kinds of things that you least expect, its so weird becuase you burst out laughing becuase you are so consued like his cats drilling thing. He did a wee bit of the Troy thing in one of his other shows(the bit with the ships), it might have been Circle but i'm not sure, i havent watched it in a while, or maybe it was Sexie, i know its one of the recent ones.

I would pay so much money to see Paris - heck just Troy in general to be portrayed in the way Eddie Izzard implied - it would be the funniest movie since Monty Python's Holy Grail(when me and my family went to see FOTR we had a Monty Python moment, when Aragorn chops off Lurtz's arm off, me and my dad yelled out 'TIS BUT A SCRATCH!!!!!!!')
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  #49  
Old February 27th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Elements
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It was Sexie Tweedy, he also did a little bit on Saladin and I cringed thinking "he's going to ruin KOH as well!" but he didn't stick with it. You know, I think we need and Eddie Izzard Appreciation thread
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  #50  
Old February 27th, 2004, 08:14 PM
TweedPants
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Yeah Eddie Izzard, and most other british comedians have wrecked my life completely, i cant watch anything without being reminded of a Monty Python sketch of something Eddie says, but its great at school becuase everyone is the same, i remember once a friend had his hand in his jacket inside pocket and pulled his hand out saying 'bunch of flowers!', and everyone just gutted themselves, so random - but oh so funny!
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