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  #51  
Old May 10th, 2005, 06:47 PM
Sazi
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I think you're right, Lady Nin. It does feel that way to me. And yes, Malene... of course we will buy both DVD's!
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  #52  
Old May 10th, 2005, 07:41 PM
clpm_9
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Thanks for all the information about missing scenes I hope they make an appearrence in the DVD
And LadyNin you rant all you like as I for one agree with you that Fox did themselves no favours with all the pushing of Gladiator - (it was rather annoying ) its no small wonder that the films were compared.
There isn't a new version of Gladiator out by any chance is there...
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  #53  
Old May 10th, 2005, 08:24 PM
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I couldn't agree more, LadyNin. Market it as Gladiator II, and that's what the audience is going to expect.
::Begin Rant:: I think Scott/Fox became terrified of the massive slump the movie industry is in right now, and decided to chop the hell out of this film so they could squeeze as many showings into that opening weekend as they could and hopefully rack up big numbers. But they just don't get it. Hollywood is hurting right now because the films the public is being given are CRAP. People don't want to deal with high prices and rude audience members just so they can see a mediocre film. Give us an intelligent, beautiful film that speaks to us, and we'll make it successful. Anyone remember the phenomenon that was Titanic a few years back? That movie actually opened modestly. But word-of-mouth turned it into a monster. When I think about what KOH could have been, I just have to shake my head. I resent TPTB assuming that I won't have the patience for a well-paced film that explores the central characters. Not that the KOH we saw in theaters was BAD, mind you. I finally got to see it and I enjoyed it. But it could have been so much more. ::End Rant::
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  #54  
Old May 10th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Leggybelle Leggybelle is offline
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You took the words out of my mouth, Pumpkin. Right from the beginning I was cringing cause they advertised it using Gladiator.....like you said, no wonder it was compared to Gladiator....BUT IT WAS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPE OF MOVIE. And a completely different lead character. Give me Balian anyday !!!

And if it had to run 4 hours to tell this wonderful story, then so be it !!! Ridley & Orlando got shafted !!!

I'm so looking forward to the EE DVD (too bad most of the world will never see it !)

P.S. I really liked KOH....but IT COULD HAVE BEEN SO MUCH BETTER !!!

Last edited by Leggybelle; May 10th, 2005 at 08:53 PM.
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  #55  
Old May 10th, 2005, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viczgz
Yeah, for sure. I'll wait for the DVD like rain of May (well, that's something we say in Spain when you expect something very much).
All those scenes focus on the character of Balian and gives another view of him. As I said before I saw Orlando very concentrated in his work (though I'm not an expert in acting), but he seemed to be living the character very much.
Besides, those are the scenes that I really would love to see in the movie
vic, you are a star Thanks so much for taking the time to answer all our questions!!
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  #56  
Old May 10th, 2005, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by unplugged32
vic, you are a star Thanks so much for taking the time to answer all our questions!!
Please don't mention it, is a pleasure always!
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  #57  
Old May 10th, 2005, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malene
Lady Nin,you sound like you think the movie isn't a hit.At least in Europe it's a big hit.
I apologize for my earlier grumbling ... it was a weak moment for me. And to be honest, I think part of my frustration is because - IMHO - quality films are so often unappreciated in my country in favor of stupid crap. It sometimes seems that we have a taste here in the US for things with no depth or value ... just shallow, foolish, FX-filled junk with bigger guns and more explosions and silly titillation. A film that requires involvement, empathy, consideration and is thought-provoking seems to be too much work. :Sigh: (Sorry, that was more grumbling and I wasn't going to do that )

It's my fervent hope that KOH will prove to be a long-term success and I'll glady eat my own words if it does.

Quote:
... It seems that EE DVDs is going to be a new trend or something... It seems the money people at FOX don't trust the audience enough....Or are they afraid to lose money because they can have fewer showings when the movie is longer?
I don't understand this.Do they make more money off releasing two sets of DVDs? ... Geez,now I feel used,too.Because of course I'll buy both DVDs.
Oh please, Sweetie, don't let my glum mood rub off on you! I think you're right and that studios underestimate the intelligence of their audiences. But they rely on demographics that show moviegoers are mostly teens and young adults - and they think only a certain kind of film will bring them in. They don't give our young folks credit for having opinions and feelings about a serious, thoughtful tale like KOH - they think all they want to see is Paris Hilton in a wet tank top in some screamy horror ripoff. And they think mature audiences don't go to movies. Well, guess why not??

Yes, of course they stand to make more $$ off DVDs ... so releasing a theatrical version and promising a "director's-special-extended-edition-collector's-cut" will keep folks attentive and anticipating, and will earn even more. It's not so much about telling a sensitive, heartfelt story and encouraging people to think ... it's about making money for the studios so they can bankroll more $130M films. (But to be honest, those big bucks do allow directors to make gorgeous, well-crafted, beautiful films... something KOH definitely is!)

I'm just glad that someone like Ridley Scott and William Monahan have the gumption to tackle a story like this one, so pertinent to our current time and yet so timeless as a hero's journey and that actors of KOH's quality have the courage to take on the characters. It could be a wonderful inspiration and rich food for thought, if we'd let it. The studio could have done the entire world a service, by letting the whole story be told the first time.

Other good news is that KOH is being well-received by Muslim cultures, and the much-discussed "stirring up of trouble" has not materialized ... once people see it, they know this is not a disruptive film but one more likely to be a source of healing and an inspiration to live one's life on a different level. So may it be! I'm incredibly proud of Orlando for this role - and for being a lot like his heroic character, Balian.

.

.
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  #58  
Old May 10th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Malene
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Lady Nin. I hope your glum mood goes away soon.
I think your rant is very valid,actually.

Especially about people thinking Balian is supposed to be like Maximus in Gladiator! What's that about? Even some critics seem to think that.
How moronic! Why do they think Ridley Scott wants to make another Gladiator? This guy doesn't make the same movie twice.He always tells a new story.
Idiots!!

There's MY rant for the day
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  #59  
Old May 11th, 2005, 02:57 PM
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Excellent points, LadyNin and Pumpkin Spice too. I completely agree, and admit I never looked at things that way...but as I mentioned earlier, I noticed the same thing with LOTR, and notice now that EE DVDs amd Director's cuts are so popular, with regard to disjointed story lines and gaps, etc.

I agree that they totally did Orlando and the movie a disservice by banking so much on the Gladiator references. Personally, I couldn't even sit through Gladiator, partially because I found it stunningly disinteresting, and also because I don't like Russell Crowe. Joaquin Phoenix was a bore.

Oh well-I'll buy any and add DVDs...
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  #60  
Old May 11th, 2005, 03:25 PM
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I for one can't wait for the EE DVD. I've already seen the movie 3 times (yes, my friend and I can be a little... ummm.... well, you know) and I'm sure the deleted scenes will answer some questions.

And to respond to some comments in other posts, there is no way this movie should be compared to Gladiator. Balian is a totally different character from Maximus and the whole story line is totally different.
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  #61  
Old May 11th, 2005, 03:55 PM
cerulean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyNin
At this particular place in time, though, I am feeling a bit used ... and also that Orlando has been, to a degree. Right now, I'm rather pi**ed at FOX. They tapped Orlando's current popularity and hired him, then tied the darn film so closely to Gladiator, Russell Crowe and Scott with all their advertising that comparisons would be inevitable. Critics trashed him because he wasn't Russell and the film because it wasn't Gladiator ... when they never were intended to be in the first place! I thought Orlando did a masterful job in the role, but false expectations were ramped up by the studio marketing. Now he'll be blamed for "not being leading man quality" if the film isn't a hit, but it's really because it was a chopped version of what seems to have been a great story and could have been a fantastic film. Phhffpht!

And putting all those cut scenes into the trailers was a cheap ploy to get butts in the seats ... (Someone said the whole film was a trailer for the director's cut DVD and they have a good point.) ... because it's left most of the audience disappointed and unable to make sense of the disconnected story we were shown.

I hope he can hold onto his sunny spirit ... in the face of Hollywood games and shenanigans. I'll just be annoyed on his behalf. *g*
Very well said Lady Nin, I completely agree on all points. It seems even the critics who are meant to have a more objective and broader perspective on a movie got drawn in by the marketing of the film and compared it to Gladiator and Braveheart. I wrote a rambling review on KOH after seeing it and one of the key points was that Kingdom of Heaven is not the story of how one man changed the world, but rather how one man dealt with the world changing around him. As the movie is written, it is very hard to showcase Balian beside other 'heros' because he is not fighting his own battle. As he himself says in the movie, they only fight in a battle in which the wounds have been inflicted a hundred years prior. It is extremely hard to get people to identify with that type of character, but I think Orlando did an admirable job. I guess they think the audience isn't smart enough to get the subtleties and nuances of that type of epic.. since some of the critics obviously weren't.

I loved the movie and want to go see it again as soon as possible, but one of my problems was with script/editing (i'm not sure which is to blame). The beginning definitely moved too fast and it's good to hear that the EE DVD will have more [hopefully more Sybilla, hopefully more pre-Jerusalem Balian, and more love scenes and character development]. I am just perplexed at why they would choose to release a passable short film rather than a longer truly epic masterpiece. Hollywood sometimes needs brave moves, and releasing a full length epic and trusting in its impact would have been a better move. But oh well, we are not the ones who decide.

Forgot to add I'm not really a fan of Gladiator.

Last edited by cerulean; May 11th, 2005 at 04:00 PM.
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  #62  
Old May 11th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Aroreiel
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I agree with you LadyNin. I like the movie as a movie, but I know it is much better and the EE DVD should prove that. Although I doubt I will buy the theatrical version on DVD. I'd much rather wait for the EE because I know it'll be better.

I know of the story too and that's why I was really disappointed with the film. Cutting out so many potentially great scenes on paper just to concentrate on the action does take away the heart of the story. Because we are supposed to care about these characters, whether we like them or hate them, we are supposed to have some emotion towards them. To be honest, I didn't feel for any one character in the theatrical version and that includes Balian. The character development was cut down in this edition and I think that's sad. I know you can't have a 3 hour 40 minute movie on the big screen, that would be too much. But I really think an extra half an hour wouldn't have made it as bum-numbing as the filmmakers thought it would be.

Just to ask something though...

Spoiler
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  #63  
Old May 11th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Rydia
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Originally Posted by Leggybelle

Also, does anyone remember from the trailer the scene with the two crocus (flowers) emerging from the ground? I thought it was very symbolic of redemption (new beginning) etc. In my mind, I figured they emerged at the end of the movie on his wife's grave.....symbolizing that both she and the child were redeemed by Balian's actions and were now in Heaven. BUT THAT WASN'T IN THE MOVIE......WHY NOT ?? It would have been so perfect and would have made everything that Balian did justified.
But I don't think Balian "found" God, even after he had defended Jerusalem. In my mind, it wouldn't have worked to imply that his wife and children were in Heaven when I don't think Balian ever regained his faith.

I feel almost positive that if I see the Kingdom of Heaven as Ridley Scott originally intended it to be seen, that I'll absolutely love it. I could actually feel that parts of the story were missing when I watched the movie, and that's never a good thing.
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  #64  
Old May 12th, 2005, 12:26 AM
GodMadeHimPerfct
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ooooooooh i can't wait for the extended dvd. yippee i remember thinking that some things needed to be better explained. i look forward to this.
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  #65  
Old May 12th, 2005, 01:37 AM
luv4ever
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wow Aroreiel i didnt know that
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  #66  
Old May 12th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Sazi
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I think you're right, Rydia... after the war Balian is still struggling with his faith.

And Aroreiel, I never heard anything about that, this is the first time.
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  #67  
Old May 12th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Pumpkin Spice
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I just had a lovely thought ... maybe Orlando will do a commentary for the extended DVD. 3+ hours of his beautiful voice.
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  #68  
Old May 12th, 2005, 08:17 PM
cerulean
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Originally Posted by Pumpkin Spice
I just had a lovely thought ... maybe Orlando will do a commentary for the extended DVD. 3+ hours of his beautiful voice.
ooooooh.. *shivers*
i do hope so. he would probably have interesting stories. and eva with her cute accent. not to mention the rest of the stellar cast.
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  #69  
Old May 12th, 2005, 08:32 PM
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viczgz viczgz is offline
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Originally Posted by Sazi
And Aroreiel, I never heard anything about that, this is the first time.
Ow neither me, as far as I know. in the scenes deleted Sibylla has children from his husband Guy, but that's all.
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  #70  
Old May 12th, 2005, 08:36 PM
Sazi
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Originally Posted by viczgz
Ow neither me, as far as I know. in the scenes deleted Sibylla has children from his husband Guy, but that's all.
Thanks Vic! You just saved my life
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  #71  
Old May 12th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Leggybelle Leggybelle is offline
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Regarding your post, Rydia:

I think you misunderstood what I meant.....I didn't mean that Balian had found God....I don't know if he did or he didn't. When I said:

"does anyone remember from the trailer the scene with the two crocus (flowers) emerging from the ground? I thought it was very symbolic of redemption (new beginning) etc. In my mind, I figured they emerged at the end of the movie on his wife's grave.....symbolizing that both she and the child were redeemed by Balian's actions and were now in Heaven. BUT THAT WASN'T IN THE MOVIE......WHY NOT ?? It would have been so perfect and would have made everything that Balian did justified,

I was referring to the fact that Balian was going to Jerusalem to ask forgiveness for his wife's deed and to possibly redeem her from Hell.....as well as forgiveness for his murder of the priest. Therefore, I could see the flowers being a symbol of her redemption.

I know, sounds mushy, but that's the kind of stuff I like, cause otherwise, what was the whole purpose if not for some redemption at the end? It would have made closure for Balian, and he could go forth to a future with Sybilla, free from his misery over his wife's fate.

At the end of Gladiator, we had Maximus reunited with his wife and son in Heaven.......why not a redemption symbol at the end of KOH?
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  #72  
Old May 13th, 2005, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sazi
Thanks Vic! You just saved my life
I'm glad to know that, though I don't know how I did it
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  #73  
Old May 14th, 2005, 12:46 AM
Rydia
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Originally Posted by Leggybelle
I was referring to the fact that Balian was going to Jerusalem to ask forgiveness for his wife's deed and to possibly redeem her from Hell.....as well as forgiveness for his murder of the priest. Therefore, I could see the flowers being a symbol of her redemption.

I know, sounds mushy, but that's the kind of stuff I like, cause otherwise, what was the whole purpose if not for some redemption at the end? It would have made closure for Balian, and he could go forth to a future with Sybilla, free from his misery over his wife's fate.

At the end of Gladiator, we had Maximus reunited with his wife and son in Heaven.......why not a redemption symbol at the end of KOH?
Redemption? By whom, God? I think that would have been too "easy" if that makes any sense. If Ridley Scott had made it seem that God had granted forgiveness to Balian's wife, then in effect it would have meant that Balian was being rewarded for his part in defending the Holy City. It would have made it seem as though God was on the side of the Christians, and I think Scott made a conscious effort not to make it seem this way. In fact, I think Scott made a very clear and decisive effort to keep God out of the picture as much as possible. This movie isn't anti-religion, but it's very clearly not pro-religion.

In the end Balian made it clear that he wasn't fighting for Jerusalem because it was a Holy place, or because the people living inside were Christians, he did it to save lives. Why imply that his wife and child were "saved" by a God that Balian doesn't even believe in anymore?

What was the point of the crusades if there wasn't any redemption for those who fought for their God? I think that's the question that Scott wants all of us to think about. Were the crusades worth it? Was fighting for Jerusalem worth it? If NOBODY found their way to Heaven after the bloodshed, than how can one possibly find any good in the Holy War?

Frankly, what I loved about this movie was how realistic it was. There aren't any easy answers. Neither Christians nor Muslims are the good guys or the bad guys. God didn't miraculously save any lives or open up the heavens and vanquish the enemy. This was about real people, with real virtues and vices, some with fanatical beliefs, and some who didn't believe at all. How do we know which side really had the blessing of God or Allah? We don't.

If Balian became agnostic when the movie ended (which seems very likely) then he really wouldn't have to worry about Hell and Heaven would he? In the end, I think he did what he did because he's a good person, not because he believed he was saving his wife and child from spending eternity in hell.

Last edited by Rydia; May 14th, 2005 at 12:48 AM.
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  #74  
Old May 14th, 2005, 01:10 AM
Leggybelle Leggybelle is offline
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You've made some very good points, Rydia. Ridley Scott obviously wanted to point out the horror of fighting over a "holy" city in the name of God (whether Muslim or Christian). In this he suceeded.

But different strokes for different folks. I am a sentimental person, religiously grounded -- if not strictly practiced, and I like to believe that there is a omnipotent God, one who weeps at our human frailties, and one who will forgive us if we but seek his forgiveness.

I saw at the end of KOH, where Balian is fingering the new blossoms on the shrub, Ridley Scott's message that could be interpreted as a sign of a new Spring, i.e., a new beginning, for Balian. Some would not pick up on this, but for those of us in the audience who need that sign, I believe this was what Scott intended.

I guess I won't know what the flowers (the crocus) pushing up out of the ground shown in the trailer mean (if anything) until the EE DVD.
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  #75  
Old May 14th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Aroreiel
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Originally Posted by viczgz
Ow neither me, as far as I know. in the scenes deleted Sibylla has children from his husband Guy, but that's all.
Ah okay. It probably got cut from other drafts of the script or something.

I can't wait to see the deleted scenes. It's not right, making us wait for them. Darn it!
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