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  #101  
Old July 10th, 2005, 08:56 AM
Filmlover
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Originally Posted by Llyneth
a person doesn't choose who he or she falls in love with,

Hints of time progression were shown, as Sybilla stayed with Balian long enough at Ibelin to require her henna tattoos to be re-done, and the desert sand turned into grass,:

We may not chose who we fall in love with but we certainly chose who we make love to. The whole point of a knight's code or any code of behavior is that a person can't just do anything they want; there are guidelines.

Now that I think of it, the film suggests that at least several weeks have passed which really makes no sense. If she has been there that long, her husband and everyone else will automatically assume they are lovers. So what's the point in delaying?

More important script-wise is that her question, Why do you think I'm here seems a bit odd. If their relationship had been developing, the answer is obvious to them both. If their relationship has been at a distance, what would be the point? Nobody is going to believe she just wanted to see the waterworks.

If Balian is just letting her hang around in the hopes that she'll get disillusioned or give up, that doesn't make sense either because of the time together everyone will assume the relationship exists.

This sequence makes no sense; it's just the usual film short hand for love: good looking woman, good looking man, sex. We have no idea of why or how. I suppose like most of film, it doesn't matter. The viewer is just supposed to be aroused.
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  #102  
Old July 10th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Malene
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Filmlover,I understand your point of view.You can explain it over again.
But I just don't share it.
As for nells point.
Balians wife is dead,she killed herself and left him alone with his grief and pain.For him to move on from her,doesn't seem like such a leap to me,really.Perhaps that is cynical,but so be it.

Llyn,I would be willing to be heavily used for romping, wherever whenever too.
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  #103  
Old July 11th, 2005, 12:13 AM
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I'm not saying he shouldn't ever make love again. I'm just saying Balian should find nell running around in the desert and make love to her instead. My hubbie gave me the ok.
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  #104  
Old July 11th, 2005, 12:56 AM
DebbieF
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Me too, nellas!

I'm sure as Orlando/Balian fans here, we'd all like to believe that it was love not lust between Balian and Sibylla (well, OK, so we don't mind a little lust too ). It just seems to me that what we saw on the theatrical release was closer to lust due to loneliness on the part of these two - which, like filmlover, I find more out of character for Balian. But as noted, there is some period of time passage going on while Sibylla is at Ibelin, and heck, for that matter, SHE'S the one who blatantly comes (on) to him. I think the movie does make it clear that she has no real love for Guy, and as forthright as she is shown, I think it's obvious that she's been "bored" and "wicked" before... (note that she considers her attraction to Balian in a "different light" too). So what if Guy knows this? She's his only valid link to the throne, so as long as they're still married, that's probably all that matters to him.

So anyway, my justification for the love scene - other than being the crass obligatory love scene that movies today demand - is that there is probably more here than we are shown (scenes with Balian & Sibylla, leading up to this, that is). Also, when Balian is asked to marry Sibylla by the King and Tiberias, I think it's obvious that they know he's attracted (and probably more than just attracted) to her - I don't think their liaison was in any way secret...
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  #105  
Old July 11th, 2005, 03:20 AM
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I agree, Debbie, I think their affair was certainly no secret from Guy, and it would only be his pride that was hurt, since he didn't seem to have much affection for Sybilla anyway.

I think one of the points of the movie was that Balian was not perfect, he did sleep with another man's wife, but in the end, he couldn't commit another sin by plotting to have Guy and many Templars hanged just to get them out of the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nellas
My hubbie gave me the ok.
Gooooooooood hubby.
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  #106  
Old July 11th, 2005, 04:02 PM
jamminn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llyneth
I agree, Debbie, I think their affair was certainly no secret from Guy, and it would only be his pride that was hurt, since he didn't seem to have much affection for Sybilla anyway.

I think one of the points of the movie was that Balian was not perfect, he did sleep with another man's wife, but in the end, he couldn't commit another sin by plotting to have Guy and many Templars hanged just to get them out of the way. .
And while others have mentioned the knight's 'code' and his upbringing; don't forget that his father was a knight who fathered Balian with a woman he wasn't married to. Also the priest mentions that Balian wasn't wanted in his village, so I'm not sure what kind of moral upbringing he actually had. But I agree that he couldn't have someone killed so he could have Sybilla.

As for his affair with Sybilla, I think it started out of loneliness and need and progressed into something more. I also don't get the feeling that she has done this before, can't remember the exact dialogue of that scene, but I'm pretty sure she says she doesn't do things like 'this' or something to that effect. Yes, she pursues him: she is a princess afterall, while he is an illegitmate son of a noble who is mourning over his lost family. I think enough time passes that he comes out of his 'funk' (or nihilistic state...!) and begins to respond to her. Personally I feel, if they weren't going to show the love scene properly, they should have just left it out totally!

This picture was so butchered by the cuts and Ridley bears a good portion of the responsibility for that. He should have shot the movie properly, with all explanations, for the theatre length. Then, if he felt there was more he wanted to add, put that in the DVD. (And I'm sitting here shaking my head about that father who was going to have his kids (in the audience) cover their eyes for the sex; what about all the war scenes - were their eyes covered for that too? Sorry, my personal rant on some parents choices.) Anyway, though I'd like to see Orlando semi-naked myself, I felt the 'love scene' was an intrusion into the movie, as it was shown.
San

edit: forgot to add :) You could be forgiven, with the way the movie was cut, for thinking that Sybilla just slept with Balian, because she knew Guy really disliked him and his father. So, she gets some fun with a good looking man, and gets to annoy the heck out of her less-than-desireable husband!! She gives Balian the first speach about being "just Sybilla" with him and loving his father right after Guy stomps away from the King's table afterall - so the motivations are really brought into question here.

Last edited by jamminn; July 11th, 2005 at 04:11 PM.
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  #107  
Old July 11th, 2005, 06:52 PM
Malene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nellas
I'm not saying he shouldn't ever make love again. I'm just saying Balian should find nell running around in the desert and make love to her instead. My hubbie gave me the ok.
This is why I've missed you,nell.
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  #108  
Old July 11th, 2005, 11:30 PM
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I wish I was Sybilla you, Nell.

I recall Sybilla saying to Balian "... I loved your father ...", which ... emmmh ... made me suspicious ... ok, was watching KoH just too many times ... I'm reading too much into this.


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  #109  
Old July 12th, 2005, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nazgul88
I recall Sybilla saying to Balian "... I loved your father ...", which ... emmmh ... made me suspicious ... ok, was watching KoH just too many times ... I'm reading too much into this.


~ Naz ~
No, you're not, Naz. That line was bugging me too for the longest time. I think Sibylla was quite the hussy. I think she was bent on seducing Balian no matter what. This was probably accomplished over time but obviously the movie didn't show the timeline well enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmlover
We may not chose who we fall in love with but we certainly chose who we make love to. The whole point of a knight's code or any code of behavior is that a person can't just do anything they want; there are guidelines.
The Templars certainly had some interestingt guidelines then. They obviously had no compunctions about assassinating people.

As far as Balian's moral issues go, I still believe that he was no saint but there's a huge difference between sex and being responsible for the deaths of not just one man but many men in order to advance politically or otherwise.
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  #110  
Old July 12th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Malene
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Originally Posted by Serein
I think Sibylla was quite the hussy. I think she was bent on seducing Balian no matter what.

Oh well,just look who's talking!

I think all the ME Hussies would be hellbent on seducing Balian no matter what!

I'm not so sure that Sybilla is one though.
Eva Green said in sveral interviews that there is an instant attraction kind of like "love at first sight." between the two.
And she says that what looks like a sex scene in the film, is a love scene in the uncut version.
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  #111  
Old July 13th, 2005, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malene
And she says that what looks like a sex scene in the film, is a love scene in the uncut version.
What sex scene? Do you mean the scene of them that lasted approximately 3 seconds? That does not constitute a sex scene....especially not to a ME hussy, little miss hussy #3.
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  #112  
Old July 13th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Filmlover
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Originally Posted by Serein
The Templars certainly had some interestingt guidelines then.

there's a huge difference between sex and being responsible for the deaths of not just one man but many men in order to advance politically or otherwise.
Balian wasn't a Templar, so their guidelines are irrelevant.Balian had his own set of guidelines, the knight's code that his father gave him and the line, what man is a man that does not make the world better?

The deaths that Baldwin proposed were not for political purposes or even for Balians and Sybilla's marriage, it was to prevent the bloodshed that would follow Baldwin's death and Guy's taking the throne.

You're right. There is a huge difference between the results of sex with another man's wife and the killing of men, but the essential choice of right and wrong are the issue for Balian. If right or wrong were measured by the degree of harm, then Balian's refusal to marry Sybilla makes no sense, because to do so would be the greater good.
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  #113  
Old July 13th, 2005, 02:30 PM
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I don't think there's any need to be condescending to other posters, or argumentative. This is a friendly discussion, hey?

I actually agree with jamminn in that Sybilla loved Balian's father in a platonic way. I never thought she meant physically they had a relationship or that she was in love with him. But that's just me. Certainly much more castle intrigue going on if you think of it the other way.

Balian's choice not to marry Sybilla may have caused more deaths in the short term when Guy's army was decimated, yes, that is certainly true. But a man should be responsible for his own sins alone, not the possible sins other men may commit if given the chance, yes? Balian was not responsible for Guy declaring war and marching on Saladin's army. He may have been able to circumvent that by marrying Sybilla, and so it is a sin of omission, I suppose.

In the long run, who knows what may have occurred if Balian had married her? He would have had to kill many Templars, and who knows what consequences that would have brought. Don't think the Pope or the French would have been pleased. Perhaps another war would have broken out. Which is the greater sin? I'm not saying the storyline is perfect, but I don't think Balian's actions are unbelieveable or made no sense either.
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  #114  
Old July 13th, 2005, 02:44 PM
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I think it was a good thing that Balian didn't go forward with marrying Sybilla at that time. It would have just given Guy and guy's followers (Whom the King couldn't find and kill because there were so many) even more reason to hate Balina and go to war. Wars should never be fought out of spite, but I think this last one was, simply because Balian told Guy not to go out to Saladin. (this is where we can call Guy names and not feel bad about it! Ha!)

I also think that if Sybilla had gotten her way, she wouldn't have grow into a Queen who walks instead of rides from Jeruselam. What a humbiling thing for her to have to do. Not only did her brother die, her husband was humiliated in front of God and everyone by Saladin and she didn't stay in her brother's city.

Interesting that Guy's right hand man (I can't remember his name) is a bit off and crazy. Dancing around the prison cell like a fat fool! I tell you, Brendan Gleeson did a great job. The crazier, the better.
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  #115  
Old July 13th, 2005, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filmlover
Balian wasn't a Templar, so their guidelines are irrelevant.Balian had his own set of guidelines, the knight's code that his father gave him and the line, what man is a man that does not make the world better?
True, but Serein wasn't stating that Balian was a Templar. She was making an observation about the Templar's own guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llyneth
Balian's choice not to marry Sybilla may have caused more deaths in the short term when Guy's army was decimated, yes, that is certainly true. But a man should be responsible for his own sins alone, not the possible sins other men may commit if given the chance, yes? Balian was not responsible for Guy declaring war and marching on Saladin's army. He may have been able to circumvent that by marrying Sybilla, and so it is a sin of omission, I suppose.
Exactly, to paraphrase the gospels, we are not our brother's keepers. In the Christian viewpoint, we are given free will. Once we've heard the word of God, we either choose to believe or not, we either choose to witness or not, and to put it in context of the film; what we do everyday makes us good men...or not. It is our conscience to do right or wrong, every single day. Some days are good, some are not, but we do try our very best.

In a sense, Balian is more of an agnostic by the end. Certainly it's what Scott himself intimated during the AMC interview (didn't Scott mention that he himself was agnostic?).
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  #116  
Old July 14th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Malene
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Originally Posted by Serein
What sex scene? Do you mean the scene of them that lasted approximately 3 seconds? That does not constitute a sex scene....especially not to a ME hussy, little miss hussy #3.
It looks like a sex scene,not a love scene, as so many have "complained" about in this thread.Which have made people question the morality of Balian and Sybilla.But when it was made it was not supposed to just look like sex but two people in love,that was my point.

I'm with EL.You can only be responsible for your own actions,and try to be a good person every day,and make the right choices.
But nobody makes the right choices for themselves and has control over what these choices will result in for those around them all the time.
Balian can't marry Sybilla when asked to do so by Baldwin because his conscience tells him he can't live with that choice.
Which probably makes it a very hard but still easy decision,if that makes sense.
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